Rick McKinley Interviews Eugene Peterson

Posted on March 17, 2011

Catalyst West 2011: Eugene Peterson from Catalyst on Vimeo.

What About Hell?

Posted on March 16, 2011

With the recent controversy surrounding judgment and the nature of hell, speakers and writers like Scot McKnight and Margaret Feinberg have offered their insights and a thoughtful approach.

In an article orginally featured in Outreach Magazine last month, Dan Kimball writes about the importance of understanding and communicating on this important topic. Dan writes:

“Emerging generations want to talk about hell.

I first realized this leading the young adult ministry at Santa Cruz Bible Church. Every year, we surveyed the group on what they wanted to study, and each time they asked questions about hell: Is it real? Why would a loving God send people to hell and is it right to do that? It seems funny to say, but hell was on the hearts and minds of those 800 young adults.

You’d think that in today’s culture it would be counterintuitive to regularly talk about hell to emerging generations. People both inside and outside the Church are extremely sensitive to associating God or a religion with something as horrifying as hell. While it’s quite comfortable to teach about Jesus having a heart for the marginalized, studying what He said about hell can be intimidating and very uncomfortable. However, in almost 20 years of serving with emerging generations, I’ve found that they are very interested.

Why Should We Talk About Hell?When you stop to think about it, references and allusions to hell run throughout our culture. Think about the Far Side cartoons with the red devil and pitchfork or how hell is used in our everyday language. It’s even in many rock songs (think AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell”). Jesus also talked about hell and used graphic metaphors for the reality of it. When we ignore the fact that He talked about it, we allow pop culture to define it. Or it gets defined by aggressive street preachers carrying signs with “HELL” written in flaming letters and yelling offensive comments to passersby. Talking about hell gives people an understanding of what the Bible actually does or doesn’t say about something they are very much aware of already. We cannot let pop culture define hell as something cartoon- or fable-like and harmless. Or let it get defined and dismissed as something that only fundamentalist street preachers talk (yell) about in a fire-and-brimstone way.

I’ve found that when we only talk about the nice things of the Bible and ignore the more difficult topics, we’re seen as only teaching partial truths about what we really believe. I believe emerging generations want us to be upfront and honest with whatever we believe—both the comfortable and uncomfortable truths. And when we don’t talk about both, we can come across insincere, almost like we’re hiding something and thus, untrustworthy.

Today, there is a wonderful interest in discussing theology and the difficult questions of the Bible. I’m working with a guy in his 20s in our church who isn’t a Christian, but he’ll be helping me design and think through theological issues and difficult questions for some open forums we’re planning.

Fascinatingly, I’ve found that emerging generations are very interested when we do teach about hell. But how and when we talk about it are critical, as are our attitudes. At Vintage Faith Church, every year since we planted the church, we give what I jokingly call our annual hell sermon. Sometimes, it happens naturally when the study we’re preaching through references hell or the afterlife. A couple years ago, we talked about it in our “Hot Theology” series. Somehow, the topic of hell comes up every year, and I’m very glad it does.

When we do teach about hell, here’s how I generally go about it:

A cultural analysis of hell. I start by giving some examples from pop culture of how we generally portray or think about hell today. I teach what various other world faiths believe about some sort of hell in the afterlife to stress that the concept of hell is not isolated to the Christian faith. I also go into how Dante’s Divine Comedy and other medieval works of art have subtly shaped our concept of hell, which isn’t scripturally accurate. So we have to be careful not to come to our conclusions based on cultural or literary definitions.

Motives for talking about hell. During one of our hell sermons, we showed a Seinfeld clip in which Elaine discovers that her boyfriend (Puddy) listens to Christian radio but then nonchalantly makes comments to Elaine about how she’s going to hell and he isn’t. At one point in the scene, she explodes: “If I am going to hell, you should care that I’m going to hell.” I used that clip as a springboard to illustrate that when we talk about hell, we should never do it out of mere Christian curiosity or interest, but as Elaine says, if we do believe that people will experience judgment, we should be grieved and doing whatever possible to be on the mission of Jesus, living out and communicating the Gospel. I want people to understand we’re talking about hell out of love for others, not out of condemnation, manipulation or with anything less than a broken heart.

Scriptural perspective. I then specifically teach from both Old and New Testaments to start to develop a biblical perspective on hell. We teach about the very limited understanding of the afterlife in the Old Testament and focus mainly on what the New Testament says. We’ve actually read aloud every New Testament verse referencing the word “hell.” I try to lay out a biblical definition of hell before we try to answer the question of whether or not a loving God would send people to hell.

I talk about words and names used for hell in the New Testmament and show how it was around 700 B.C. when Greek writers used the terms hades and tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) in Homer’s Odyssey. I briefly go into Platonic views of the afterlife, which framed the culture Jesus lived in. We look at the specific New Testament Greek words used for hell (hades, tartarus, gehenna) and how God chose to use two familiar pre-existing Greek mythological terms describing an underworld of the dead (hades and tartarus) predating the New Testament by 700 years. He chose to use these words from Greek mythology to communicate to us about hell.

We also look at how Jesus used the word gehenna (translated “hell” in English), which was the Valley of Gehenna—the garbage dump outside the city walls of Jerusalem where dead bodies were thrown out, worms ate flesh and fires were constantly burning. So the imagery of fire, worms, etc., makes sense when looked at through a historical lens. We also need to differentiate between when hades is used, such as in Luke 16, and when gehenna is used.

And at the same time, we also have to look at possible metaphors for hell and their individual contexts. Plus, we cannot forget the many other passages which may not use the words hades or gehenna but do specifically, strongly and soberly talk about judgment after death.

Something interesting I teach is that the English word “hell” that has been translated in our Bibles from the Greek words gehenna, hades and tartarus is derived from Hel, the mythological Nordic goddess of the underworld, similar to the English word Easter, derived from the fertility goddess Eastre.

Mystery and reality. I try to approach this topic humbly and with mystery but also teach it is a reality. I specifically state that only God knows someone’s eternal destiny. We walk through various Scriptures explaining that it is appointed for people to die and that everyone will face judgment (Heb. 9:27). We also look at the differences in judgment between a Christian and non-Christian. I share that much of what hell will be like is a mystery, but that we can know it is eternal, a place of regret, etc. I do share that there are varying views about hell among Christians, including annihilation (when people cease to exist and don’t experience eternal suffering).

Escaping Hell and Where We Go in the Afterlife Are Not the Gospel . I can say that there are no dull moments when teaching about hell. It is actually a topic of high interest to most people. Again, it goes back to why and how we talk about it. Jesus didn’t seem to focus on hell as a means of evangelism. His teachings primarily focused on the kingdom of heaven on earth. Too often, I think we’ve subtly made hell the primary motivation for salvation and the Gospel, altering or losing the beauty of the holistic Gospel (I Cor. 15). The Gospel is not just about what happens when we die, but about our lives being changed here. I know that as a church, we don’t want to dwell on the reality of hell, but at the same time we must never forget there is a hell, even if it is a mystery to what it is specifically.

Almost every time I teach on hell, I close with this quote from Charles Spurgeon—a reminder to me and to our church why we do teach on such an uncomfortable topic:

“If sinners be dammed, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for.”

I know as I lead a church with a high percentage of emerging generations in it, hell is something we talk about. Not to manipulate people. Not to scare them in an unhealthy way. But because they are thinking people who definitely have questions. And because Jesus and the New Testament does teach about it. If we do believe there is a hell—even if we don’t understand exactly what it will be—we must talk about it because we care about the people Jesus loves, the people He died for so that they would not experience hell, but have abundant kingdom life here on this earth and be with Him for all eternity.

How can we not teach about it?”

To listen to a message from Erwin McManus shared a few years ago at Mosaic in Los Angeles called “Life’s Toughest Questions: Is There a Hell?”, click here.

To listen to a message from John Burke shared at Gateway Church in Austin last year, click here for Final Destination: Heaven and click here for Final Destination: Hell.

“New Life for Unrequited Dreams” by Christi Watson

Posted on March 16, 2011

“On a clear night, such as this, I can make out the yellow flame of Lady Liberty from my living room window in New Jersey. Just beyond the statue, millions of white lights blind the stars in lower Manhattan. Every September 11, I watch as two fluorescent blue beams shoot toward the sky from where the World Trade Center Towers once stood, as if they are greeting the souls they spit to eternity years ago. Seeing NYC from my window every day is a part of my dream that DID come true. I absolutely love that town. For almost four years I commuted into New York City to pursue a career in the theater. Now I sit in the middle of a pile of cardboard boxes filled with all of my belongings. A new adventure beckons elsewhere, and although I will still pursue the theater, it will not be in my Manhattan.  I sit for the purpose of contemplating the lessons I learned here. As beautiful as these lessons are, they are not at all what I thought they would be.

Within my first year pounding the pavement of Broadway, I went to two, sometimes three auditions a day, and I saw the fruit of my labor. I landed a national tour. Then, suddenly, all the doors seemed locked tight.  Although smaller opportunities came my way, it became clear to me that my dream of Broadway, at least for the time being, was my dream and not God’s.  Along the ensuing path of intense disappointment, I linked arms with a precious “fellowship of freaks”—–the unrequited dreamers, those who find themselves miscarrying hope after hope, the children of God with tear stained faces.  I realized that the number of artists struggling to make a dime far outnumbers those who come close to the world’s definition of “success.”  Instead of cloistering myself away, as I felt like doing, I chose to share my pain with others who, in turn, chose to share their pain with me. Amongst this fellowship of rejects, I found that my God is more richly present at the wake of my dreams than at the feast of their fruition. I found my God to be utterly capable of handling my anger in a manner that allows me to live in peace. I found joy in sharing that peace with others.  I found that New York City, in all its rough and tumble glory, cannot define Christi anymore than the minute town in Texas where I was born, or the suburban town in Georgia where I grew up, or the strange neighborhood of NJ where I actually live can define Christi. I found that it is downright dangerous to define myself by anything but the cross of Jesus Christ, because that is the only identity that can never be stripped away. I am an actor, but someday my tired mind will refuse to remember any more lines. I am a singer, but someday my vocal chords will shrivel. I am a daughter of the King, who breathes new life into crucified dreams, and that will never, ever change.”

Christi Avant-Watson has toured nationally as an actor/singer as well as performed Off and Off-Off Broadway and in Regional Theater.  She currently lives with her husband Matt  in Columbus, GA where continues to pursue theater as well as doing a bit of marketing for Chick-fil-A.

“Listening” by Marcus “Goodie” Goodloe

Posted on March 16, 2011

Marcus “Goodie” Goodloe, Campus Pastor, Mosaic South Bay, Redondo Beach, CA writes:

When I ran track in high school, my coach told me time and time again, “Goodie, listen for the starter’s voice (Ok, the word “gun” in my inner city school had other implications. A guy holding a gun in the air, prop or otherwise, never went over well in Compton. So we opted for a person’s voice). But I regress.

I remember one instance at a state-wide final, my senior year. As a hush came over the stadium, the starter’s voice was the focused attention of everyone on the track including people in the stands, coaches on the field, and athletes in the starter’s blocks. The anticipation of movement was thick, my heart pounded, and my hands melted with perspiration. Here it was: the long hours after school in practice, the weight and endurance training, and the rigorous diet came down to this moment. The start of the race, a moment that lasted all of .024 seconds at the most.

In the same way a runner anticipates the voice of the starter, I’m convinced the next step for “party theology,” and those wanting to move intentionally toward making room for others to connect to God and community, is to listen. Listening to God is critical because it allows you to consider how your life can be used as a conduit for His love and compassion. The Scriptures support the importance of listening. The wisest man in all the earth said, “Let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance” (Proverbs 1:5). James, a servant of Jesus, called for us to be “quick to listen, slow to speak. . .” (James 1:19).

In very practical ways, you will find there’s a hush in the hearts of those who want more to life than what they are currently experiencing. And so, you must listen to those around you who are disconnected from God and community. I’m convinced you need to listen to hear their heart, not simply their words. Listening involves taking note of other’s fear, pain, past failures, and negative perceptions about God and communities of faith. These feelings are real, but so too is the compassion of God expressed through Jesus. Hearing from those you desire to connect to God and community will give you a sense of interests, circumstances and environments that may be conducive for growth, learning, and character development. Have the audacity to believe that a person’s encounter with Jesus, in the context of community, is the most significant life altering experience on planet earth. An experience not based on opinion or previously held beliefs, but a result of a personal divine connection to the Transcendent.

Here are some practical steps for Parties or experiences, on behalf of Jesus:

1. Book club conversation: identify an engaging book and create a series of discussion questions, and action steps around the theme of the book.
2. Music listening parties: team up with friends who are part of a local band, and have a listening party (album release). Discuss how this genre of art is one of many we experience in our community and that “creativity is a natural result of our spirituality.”
3. Service parties: team up with a group of folks and go serve those who are in need. Homeless shelters, soup kitchens, Boys and Girls Clubs, or At-Risk teen programs are nearby in most major cities. Go, and partner with them
4. Commit to follow up conversations after the experiences you’ve created: This includes conversations with your team or family who help plan, and with those who participated.
5. Speaking of planning, look for an opportunity to create “parties” with those who will be impacted the most: Yes, that’s right! Include others (and their friends) in creating an experience they would enjoy. Your mission then, is to find the coolest and most connected person, and launch them into the glare of “streamers” and “party savers.”
6. Conduct an audit of resources you have at your disposal. Some of the experiences need not be expensive, but they should have value and quality. Money makes a difference, but having relationships with people who can come alongside you to make experiences happen is even more important.